Questions about tonight’s game? Thoughts about the tournament? Predictions? Ruminations about Gignac’s hamstring? Get in here. Let’s talk through it while we wait for the late kickoff.
How much is this title worth for Tigres given their inability to win at the last hurdle in recent years? Is Mexico ambivalent towards this competition given the dominance of their clubs in this competition in the last decade, or is the recognition of continental dominance welcome? I've never followed CONCACAF football before so I'm interested in knowing where the CCL stands in the hearts and minds of the fans!
I think fans of Mexican clubs generally take it for granted that they should win it, and until they don't win it, it's a fair expectation. Tigres are a huge club with a lot of fans and a big budget to match, but, like you said, have never won an international title. So, I think it's a bit different. Tuca Ferretti admitted this tournament has been something of a thorn in the side for the club, and I think they recognized heading into this single-site situation that a title is very much within reach. It would mean a lot to fans to finally see their team in the Club World Cup.
Still, the vast majority will prioritize domestic titles over international ones, though, again, that may change if teams from outside Mexico start winning them regularly.
I think this is the one the really want, not only to get the one that's eluded them, but to put themselves into the Club World Cup. After how their cross-town rival Monterrey fared last year - only losing to Liverpool in second-half stoppage time - I think Tigres would love to take on the challenge that tournament brings.
How do y'all feel about this morning's newsletter? Is this simply LAFC and Tigres playing for themselves or will the result truly tell us something about MLS vs. Liga MX?
I’m not sure if it really tells us something about MLS vs. Liga MX - but I think if LAFC win tonight it does raise the expectations for other top-tier MLS teams to be competing for this trophy, too.
That's a good point. I think MLS teams have to win CCL consistently to start claiming it's 'catching' or 'has caught' Liga MX, but if one does it, the fans may shift more expectation on their teams to be the next team to win it or to keep up with the Joneses.
I can see a certain segment of fans - certainly Galaxy, and maybe others like the Sounders - who would prefer to see Tigres win tonight because they'd like to be able to plant their flag as the first MLS team to win it.
Yeah, it's strange because I love the sport's history in this country and always try to write things like "in the current format" but it's pretty clearly a different thing. The Galaxy are legitimate winners of that 2000 tournament (actually held in 2001, I believe) but they never had to leave Southern California to do it, which I think is some context worth remembering.
True, but unfortunately for both they and D.C. United the Club World Cup was a complete mess back then. The year LAG would have played in it in 2001, it got cancelled because FIFA's marketing partner went bust.
They were going to be in a group with Real Madrid, too.
Don't think it's representative or anything, but do think people could point to this moment in 5-10 years. Also think LAFC will dominate possession, but haven't seen much of Tigres outside of occasional matches and the NYCFC game, so prepared to be very wrong here.
It's going to be seen as more of a referendum than it SHOULD be, but it's not meaningless. That may be more in perception than anything tangible, but there's still something to it. (And frankly, once an MLS team finally gets it done, the MLS-v-MX storyline probably diminishes quite a bit. It's the fact that it hasn't been done in this format that's driving the narrative).
just playing for themselves. to be honest, as a Quakes fan, i really don't care about which league is better. i just want to watch good, competitive games, and when my team plays, i want them to win.
This is pertaining to Bob Bradley, but historically, I've liked the way he's managed every national team and club he's been at, the way he's been able to elevate every team to some sort of success. I also like the way he speaks about the game, unlike most other American managers that have gone abroad, besides Jesse Marsch that's at RB Salzburg . I'll give LAFC credit they've done a lot to get here and this would be huge for them to win it & put MLS on the map in the FIFA Club World Cup if they were to win it tonight.
It was interesting to see even Bradley lose his cool a bit against América even given the experience you mention, Daniel, but seconds later he was back on top of things and obviously gave a hell of a halftime team talk judging by the way LAFC came back out. It would be a massive accomplishment to lift the trophy. Great points.
No matter what happens tonight, LAFC's performance in this tournament has been impressive. There's no doubt about it. Even though it was a while back, the León series alone should be seen as an achievement with how well Nacho Ambriz had that team playing even in the spring. Then, the Cruz Azul and América wins are icing on the cake.
I think you see the rising influence in this tournament in Mexico with Herrera's dismissal. América's elimination wasn't the only factor in his firing, but it certainly was a factor.
There will be some alarm bells ringing (rightly or wrongly) if LAFC does it.
I think some of the headlines we've seen - not just with Club America but after Cruz Azul got knocked out by LAFC - have shown losing to an MLS club is a bit calamatous.
It'll be interesting if *that* perception also shifts as MLS teams become more competitive in this tournament. Does this idea that it's UNACCEPTABLE to lose to an MLS team go away if MLS teams win, say, three of the next five CCL tournaments?
While MLS teams are slowly getting better, the bench of each MLS team will have to be worth another 3-5 million dollars before an MLS team could really be sure of challenging for the CONCACAF Club Championship. NO MLS team has gone to the FIFA Club World Cup, wait until next year, as the saying goes.... The sloppy defending by LAFC on Tigres first goal off of a corner kick can be fixed, but still, the players who came off of Tigres's bench at the end of the game were FAR BETTER players.....As for the winning goal, if VAR was available, the Tigres player who appeared to be in an offside position when the shot was taken might have been closely looked at by the VAR and referee...The offside player was close to interfering with play. I used to do some game management work in Miami years ago for CONCACAF, and I have also have been on the USSF professional referee list......it was a close game, and somebody had to win....
What a great match, a pure demonstration of why we love Concacaf. Tigres deserve the world, they're so good. And their respect for LAFC in the postgame is very admirable.
Doyle tweeted a good point, based on pass map neither Palacious nor Blackmon attempted passes in the final third. Do they get more freedom to bomb forward as the clock winds down?
I saw he got the game and thought it was a good appointment, but this could get ugly if he doesn't take control quickly in the first half. Not saying there was anything beyond the pale but probably should've been two yellows and I would've whistled for that potential penalty as well.
Great question, Seth. I also am surprised, but my first two guesses to spring to mind: Vincent Janssen last year (didn't play) and Marc Crosas (didn't win) didn't fit the bill.
Wiki doesn’t list Janssen as a winner of it, so he wouldn’t count in the TSS wiki game (RIP Daryl) I thought maybe LA or DC, but that wasn’t CCL and what they did win was before the euro push after Becks.
I remain skeptical there will be a true 'merger' but could absolutely see something like eight 'interleague' matches that count in the table. Let's say...2026?
Fine, fine. I actually think it starts before he gets the ball. He pops up all over and will drop deep to find it and then can gallop past a single defender. But you'd rather that than Quinones setting him up for a tap-in. The more you control the midfield, the fewer chances close to the goal he'll have.
It's a good question. I wonder how having him and Rossi the entire end of the season and not out for virus-related reasons would've changed things - or how having BWP would've changed this tournament. Musovski was not a player I expected to be seeing this much of.
That said, I feel like the players who LAFC have on the field have lived up to their billing, especially chasing as many matches as they have.
not related to the CCL final, but the situation re: El Salvador is interesting. Nicaragua had a similar issue with Henry Duarte. dude was essentially a lame duck for a full year because they couldn't afford to pay his severance. so frustrating.
maybe Red Bull should pay that $480k in exchange for forcing their Ralf-ball on the national team?
It's a weird situation, especially because of the potential issues with the government body popping up. El Salvador fans should expect to be able to get to the octagonal, but off-field issues have held the team back so much whether of the players' making (match manipulation) or these administrative situations.
The only thing it's missing is fans, for obvious reasons. Otherwise, it's the best final the neutrals (and the organizers) could ask for. Like you're saying, Brian, both teams have plenty to play for.
Tim Vickery is a proponent of the two legged final but they’ve switched to the 1 game on neutral ground. For 2021 and onwards should CONCACAF do the same or have it still 2 legs
I appreciate the two legs in a sport that is as influenced by atmosphere as soccer is, especially in this region. That said, the more compact format has been a lot of fun.
Personally, I hope we're able to go back to two-legged series with stadiums full of cheering fans in the not-too-distant future.
I think for marketing purposes - in the way UEFA does - a one-legged final at a neutral site is better for broadcasters and casual fans.
I'm not sure it's a question they could fill either MLS venue in LA or one of the big venues in Mexico if hosting rights were awarded, the question is whether they would want to?
Great question, Bobson. I've been puzzled at some of the breakdowns of Tigres' style because Tuca's teams really do want the ball. This iteration is less controlling as past Tigres teams that would run into the 90%s against Liga MX's worst squads, but they still like to play. I think LAFC will end up getting more of it but only barely, which should help them impose a bit, but Atuesta is a big miss in the middle as well.
Ooo, this is a great one, continuing a Twitter discussion about how teams should put the 🤝 emoji above their badge when they win the Fair Play award. I assume there actually is a standings for this but I'll say Atlanta United should get it for showing up when they could've been like, "Nah, thanks but no thanks."
That's a bold bet with the way Kaye has been, uh, struggling on the ball in this tournament, but we know he has them in him. I think Rossi has a big opportunity tonight to show he can rise to the occasion.
How much is this title worth for Tigres given their inability to win at the last hurdle in recent years? Is Mexico ambivalent towards this competition given the dominance of their clubs in this competition in the last decade, or is the recognition of continental dominance welcome? I've never followed CONCACAF football before so I'm interested in knowing where the CCL stands in the hearts and minds of the fans!
Welcome to the madness, Anna!
I think fans of Mexican clubs generally take it for granted that they should win it, and until they don't win it, it's a fair expectation. Tigres are a huge club with a lot of fans and a big budget to match, but, like you said, have never won an international title. So, I think it's a bit different. Tuca Ferretti admitted this tournament has been something of a thorn in the side for the club, and I think they recognized heading into this single-site situation that a title is very much within reach. It would mean a lot to fans to finally see their team in the Club World Cup.
Still, the vast majority will prioritize domestic titles over international ones, though, again, that may change if teams from outside Mexico start winning them regularly.
I think this is the one the really want, not only to get the one that's eluded them, but to put themselves into the Club World Cup. After how their cross-town rival Monterrey fared last year - only losing to Liverpool in second-half stoppage time - I think Tigres would love to take on the challenge that tournament brings.
Enjoy it, everyone! Thanks for joining the chat. I'll have some thoughts post-match.
How do y'all feel about this morning's newsletter? Is this simply LAFC and Tigres playing for themselves or will the result truly tell us something about MLS vs. Liga MX?
It’s them playing for themselves. I agreed with what you were saying; doesn’t really speak for other teams with how unique LAFC is in MLS.
I’m not sure if it really tells us something about MLS vs. Liga MX - but I think if LAFC win tonight it does raise the expectations for other top-tier MLS teams to be competing for this trophy, too.
That's a good point. I think MLS teams have to win CCL consistently to start claiming it's 'catching' or 'has caught' Liga MX, but if one does it, the fans may shift more expectation on their teams to be the next team to win it or to keep up with the Joneses.
I can see a certain segment of fans - certainly Galaxy, and maybe others like the Sounders - who would prefer to see Tigres win tonight because they'd like to be able to plant their flag as the first MLS team to win it.
i think LAG's position is that they already won it back in the day. which i can't disagree with... Euro teams count their pre-CL wins, too.
Yeah, it's strange because I love the sport's history in this country and always try to write things like "in the current format" but it's pretty clearly a different thing. The Galaxy are legitimate winners of that 2000 tournament (actually held in 2001, I believe) but they never had to leave Southern California to do it, which I think is some context worth remembering.
True, but unfortunately for both they and D.C. United the Club World Cup was a complete mess back then. The year LAG would have played in it in 2001, it got cancelled because FIFA's marketing partner went bust.
They were going to be in a group with Real Madrid, too.
Don't think it's representative or anything, but do think people could point to this moment in 5-10 years. Also think LAFC will dominate possession, but haven't seen much of Tigres outside of occasional matches and the NYCFC game, so prepared to be very wrong here.
It's going to be seen as more of a referendum than it SHOULD be, but it's not meaningless. That may be more in perception than anything tangible, but there's still something to it. (And frankly, once an MLS team finally gets it done, the MLS-v-MX storyline probably diminishes quite a bit. It's the fact that it hasn't been done in this format that's driving the narrative).
just playing for themselves. to be honest, as a Quakes fan, i really don't care about which league is better. i just want to watch good, competitive games, and when my team plays, i want them to win.
This is totally reasonable, which is why I fear it's the minority opinion!
This is pertaining to Bob Bradley, but historically, I've liked the way he's managed every national team and club he's been at, the way he's been able to elevate every team to some sort of success. I also like the way he speaks about the game, unlike most other American managers that have gone abroad, besides Jesse Marsch that's at RB Salzburg . I'll give LAFC credit they've done a lot to get here and this would be huge for them to win it & put MLS on the map in the FIFA Club World Cup if they were to win it tonight.
It was interesting to see even Bradley lose his cool a bit against América even given the experience you mention, Daniel, but seconds later he was back on top of things and obviously gave a hell of a halftime team talk judging by the way LAFC came back out. It would be a massive accomplishment to lift the trophy. Great points.
I can't wait for the "MLS can't beat Liga MX teams" when Tigres win even tho LAFC have beaten three of them
No matter what happens tonight, LAFC's performance in this tournament has been impressive. There's no doubt about it. Even though it was a while back, the León series alone should be seen as an achievement with how well Nacho Ambriz had that team playing even in the spring. Then, the Cruz Azul and América wins are icing on the cake.
If LAFC wisn, MLS and its supporters will lose it. Will LigaMX fans care or will it be met with a ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I think you see the rising influence in this tournament in Mexico with Herrera's dismissal. América's elimination wasn't the only factor in his firing, but it certainly was a factor.
There will be some alarm bells ringing (rightly or wrongly) if LAFC does it.
I think some of the headlines we've seen - not just with Club America but after Cruz Azul got knocked out by LAFC - have shown losing to an MLS club is a bit calamatous.
It'll be interesting if *that* perception also shifts as MLS teams become more competitive in this tournament. Does this idea that it's UNACCEPTABLE to lose to an MLS team go away if MLS teams win, say, three of the next five CCL tournaments?
While MLS teams are slowly getting better, the bench of each MLS team will have to be worth another 3-5 million dollars before an MLS team could really be sure of challenging for the CONCACAF Club Championship. NO MLS team has gone to the FIFA Club World Cup, wait until next year, as the saying goes.... The sloppy defending by LAFC on Tigres first goal off of a corner kick can be fixed, but still, the players who came off of Tigres's bench at the end of the game were FAR BETTER players.....As for the winning goal, if VAR was available, the Tigres player who appeared to be in an offside position when the shot was taken might have been closely looked at by the VAR and referee...The offside player was close to interfering with play. I used to do some game management work in Miami years ago for CONCACAF, and I have also have been on the USSF professional referee list......it was a close game, and somebody had to win....
What a great match, a pure demonstration of why we love Concacaf. Tigres deserve the world, they're so good. And their respect for LAFC in the postgame is very admirable.
Hey Jon greetings from Honduras, do you think in the future group stage will be back?
Doyle tweeted a good point, based on pass map neither Palacious nor Blackmon attempted passes in the final third. Do they get more freedom to bomb forward as the clock winds down?
The most central question: How badly will Mario Escober referee this game...
I saw he got the game and thought it was a good appointment, but this could get ugly if he doesn't take control quickly in the first half. Not saying there was anything beyond the pale but probably should've been two yellows and I would've whistled for that potential penalty as well.
Mike Watts mentioned a Canadian might lift the trophy for the first time, wouldn’t a European be a first as well? Gignac or Vermeer.
Quickly looking at the wiki info for finals I think you're right, kinda surprised by that?
Report back if you find someone. It really seems like we'll have a first tonight. I do know an African player won! (Emaná with Cruz Azul)
Didn't see any euros, so a first will happen regardless it seems. Did learn a few Americans had already won that I hadn't known about.
I skimmed wiki, I thought maybe Atlante? But no. Maybe CONCACAF makes a French or Dutch newspaper tomorrow lol, going places
Great question, Seth. I also am surprised, but my first two guesses to spring to mind: Vincent Janssen last year (didn't play) and Marc Crosas (didn't win) didn't fit the bill.
Wiki doesn’t list Janssen as a winner of it, so he wouldn’t count in the TSS wiki game (RIP Daryl) I thought maybe LA or DC, but that wasn’t CCL and what they did win was before the euro push after Becks.
How long until this is a league match? Also will it be the entirety of MLS and LIGA MX merging or just a select few teams??
I remain skeptical there will be a true 'merger' but could absolutely see something like eight 'interleague' matches that count in the table. Let's say...2026?
Jon, how can Gignac be stopped???
Fine, fine. I actually think it starts before he gets the ball. He pops up all over and will drop deep to find it and then can gallop past a single defender. But you'd rather that than Quinones setting him up for a tap-in. The more you control the midfield, the fewer chances close to the goal he'll have.
He can't. Next question.
Random question for everyone; are we more impressed that LAFC is doing this without Rodriguez playing significant minutes?
It's a good question. I wonder how having him and Rossi the entire end of the season and not out for virus-related reasons would've changed things - or how having BWP would've changed this tournament. Musovski was not a player I expected to be seeing this much of.
That said, I feel like the players who LAFC have on the field have lived up to their billing, especially chasing as many matches as they have.
not related to the CCL final, but the situation re: El Salvador is interesting. Nicaragua had a similar issue with Henry Duarte. dude was essentially a lame duck for a full year because they couldn't afford to pay his severance. so frustrating.
maybe Red Bull should pay that $480k in exchange for forcing their Ralf-ball on the national team?
Red Bull National Team. I can see it now!
Ha, I like the tactical twist!
It's a weird situation, especially because of the potential issues with the government body popping up. El Salvador fans should expect to be able to get to the octagonal, but off-field issues have held the team back so much whether of the players' making (match manipulation) or these administrative situations.
i think Gignac is gonna not start but come on in the 75th minute and drop a hat trick or something like it's WWE
He's starting, but a heel turn-esque late hatty still very much in the equation.
This has great storylines. Can Tigres get over the hump? Can LAFC get the first CCL for MLS
The only thing it's missing is fans, for obvious reasons. Otherwise, it's the best final the neutrals (and the organizers) could ask for. Like you're saying, Brian, both teams have plenty to play for.
Tim Vickery is a proponent of the two legged final but they’ve switched to the 1 game on neutral ground. For 2021 and onwards should CONCACAF do the same or have it still 2 legs
I appreciate the two legs in a sport that is as influenced by atmosphere as soccer is, especially in this region. That said, the more compact format has been a lot of fun.
Personally, I hope we're able to go back to two-legged series with stadiums full of cheering fans in the not-too-distant future.
I think for marketing purposes - in the way UEFA does - a one-legged final at a neutral site is better for broadcasters and casual fans.
I'm not sure it's a question they could fill either MLS venue in LA or one of the big venues in Mexico if hosting rights were awarded, the question is whether they would want to?
You can debate about one leg giving better games, but I think two legs is a must for the fans
Shoutout to Tim Vickery by the way, great name
Who do you think will have the edge in possession? I read that Tigres doesn’t care about possession all that much so I’m wondering if that’s true.
Great question, Bobson. I've been puzzled at some of the breakdowns of Tigres' style because Tuca's teams really do want the ball. This iteration is less controlling as past Tigres teams that would run into the 90%s against Liga MX's worst squads, but they still like to play. I think LAFC will end up getting more of it but only barely, which should help them impose a bit, but Atuesta is a big miss in the middle as well.
Who is going to win the Fair Play award?
Ooo, this is a great one, continuing a Twitter discussion about how teams should put the 🤝 emoji above their badge when they win the Fair Play award. I assume there actually is a standings for this but I'll say Atlanta United should get it for showing up when they could've been like, "Nah, thanks but no thanks."
I have LAFC 2-1. They’ve looked a lot more sharp than Tigres did in that first half against Olimpia. Book Vela and Kaye scoring
That's a bold bet with the way Kaye has been, uh, struggling on the ball in this tournament, but we know he has them in him. I think Rossi has a big opportunity tonight to show he can rise to the occasion.